---------------

My family and I visited the climate camp on the Monday before the day of action. We live in Hoo village and my children wanted to visit the camp to find out about how renewable energy can be made. We were very impressed with the camps set up. We totally disagree with the protesters trying to shut down a running power station, but the actions of the police on the day we visited were totally disgraceful. We were stopped and my wife and my two children were searched. I tried to explain to the officers that we had done nothing wrong and I have lived in Hoo all of my 43 years and had never been subject to such intimidation from the police Well done to Kent Police - you certenley know how to make enemies.

Fred Hookins

fhookins@aol.com, Saturday 16 August 2008

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Dave Tutt (Part 2): As for the Kingsnorth protest, at least some part of this is because if we in Britain embark on a new generation of coal-fired power stations (which may well be "cleaner", but will still be the dirtiest form of power generation around), then we won't have a leg to stand on when trying to encourage other countries not to build them either.

If we go with coal, they will all go with coal, and it's game over for everyone.

We have a window of chance to lead the world in renewable energy and turn this disaster into an opportunity. One that might even benefit the economy and create jobs.

When we prove that it can be then we'll have some semblence of credibility when we ask others to stop their polluting and invest in renewables too.

A new coal-fired power station at Kingsnorth would undermine all of this, which is just another reason why we can't allow it to happen.

John Doddson

Rochester, Saturday 16 August 2008

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Dave Tutt: I agree with some of what you're saying. However, I think there are a few gaps in your reasoning which mislead your conclusions.

While I definitely think we should be careful not to increase population levels too much, I also think the argument that "there are too many of us" is flawed and a bit simplistic.

Consider how many billions of the world's people live perfectly reasonable lives while consuming 10-20 times less resources and emitting 10-20 times less polution than we do in the "developed" world. These people aren't necessarily peasants living a subsistence life - they're just living considerably less wasteful than we are.

The issue is not that "there are too many people", but that a small percentage of us are consuming and polluting way beyond what could in any way be considered a sustainable level. To think that one day all might be able to live as we do is laughable!

There is living proof all over the planet that our current levels of consumption and pollution are not necessary in order to live a rewarding life.

If we worked to meet our actual needs and eliminated aspects of our lives which were pointless, overly wasteful or just made us all miserable, then we'd be a fair few steps closer to living more sustainably as well.

So I don't believe that the main problem is that there are "too many people" - more just our inability to admit that perhaps our way of life actually isn't quite the epitome of human achievement and happiness that we've been lead to believe it is.

John Doddson

Rochester, Saturday 16 August 2008

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I really don't think there is any issue with the fact (and it is a fact) that we humans are to blame for global warming and the destruction of our planet. It's simple really, there are just too many of us and until all the world governments take this on as a challenge we honestly have very little hope. Still, at least if warming causes serious environmental issues it will decimate our population but also sadly that of most of the other creatures here.

As for the Kingsnorth issue, I really think any protest about E.ON doing anything will make exactly zero difference. You have to remember that this is profit; money; bonuses and to hell with the results in the atmosphere. It would be the same anywhere in the world let alone just here on the Hoo peninsular. What I cannot understand though is the fact that this site sits on the edge of a major source of free clean power namely the River Medway. Barrage construction across rivers is a proven method of extractive free energy with almost zero pollution (all building is a source of some sort of mess be it during construction or in its general maintenance) but would be 100% preferable to a new coal power station. A barrage here could include a road and or a rail link that, if we were serious about environmental issues would link up to a similar barrage across the Thames between Southend and Allhallows. We have a very high population density in the south east with this growing continuously thanks to government attitudes to European immigrants and the lack of jobs in the north. For this to continue we must lessen the impact of our power generation to an absolute minimum.

There is one more issue I feel is important. Global warming is and will continue to cause unsettled weather and our winters are likely to remain moderate for the foreseeable future. We therefore have an opportunity to reduce our gas and oil heating requirement in all our homes and offices by installing solar powered water heating. This really does work. During summer months the cost of heating water for most suitably equipped homes is practically zero and a significant improvement during the winter months. Why then is there so little action on this from the government? Surely a source of thousands of jobs across the UK presenting a significant UK wide reduction in carbon footprints. Joined up thinking to use a nasty catch phrase is very important if we are to reduce our emissions. It is only by using the technologies that we know that we can start to make a difference. There is no global panacea or scientific solution on the horizon. We should all be involved but the driving force must come from our political leaders who obviously don't have much of a clue hence our strange and ineffectual ideas surrounding carbon trading and green taxes. There is a way to ensure the longevity of our species but as yet there is no commitment to sustaining our world.

dave tutt

chatham kent, Friday 15 August 2008

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Hear hear John.

S W

Hoo, Friday 15 August 2008

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Brian Phillips: Could you cite your sources for your claims please?

Last I checked, the World Meteorological Organization (WMO) released figures in December 2007 which showed that the top 11 warmest years all occurred in the last 13 years. That seems to directly contradict your claims.

Eg. See the Science Daily article discussing this at: http://tinyurl.com/39fb7x

Looks to me like it simply IS true!

As a side note, do any of you climate change "deniers" have any idea how much us climate change "believers" really, REALLY want to be wrong about all of this?

We really don't enjoy trying to deal with just how close humanity is getting to absolute disaster on a daily basis, you know!

I'd give my right arm to know for sure that we actually are wrong, because we don't have anything much to win from being right, do we!?

John Doddson

Rochester, Thursday 14 August 2008

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Brian, the Met Office web site is just one very reputable site which contains data that, whichever way you look at it, shows climate change is real and due to our impact on the planet.

A number of posters (including myself) have included links to information about climate change and I hope people will use them to learn more about the subject.

Your argument about statistics is circular: if your views are not based on statistics then you should not disagree with the data (because you do not have data to support your argument), if your views are based on statistics where does that leave your views (as you question the validity of statistics)?

David Davison

Chattenden, Thursday 14 August 2008

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The once popular assertion that the warmest ten years have all occurred since 1995 has been "corrected". It simply isn't true. Where does that leave all the other "statistics"?

Brian Phillips

New Ash Green, Thursday 14 August 2008

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RH, "ZeroCarbonBritain - An Alternative Energy Strategy" was published in 2007 by the Centre for Alternative Technology and its executive summary states:

"zerocarbonbritain is a radical vision of Britainʼs energy

future, outlining bold policy drivers to reduce carbon

emissions to zero within 20 years. What follows is a scenario demonstrating possible outcomes of these policies, using only existing and proven technologies."

This document is very clear about what can be done and achieving the goal in the timescale is dependent on boldness, political will, investment and the people of this country - it is not about the viability of technologies.

The reason for the lack of investment in renewables is down to profit making - more profit can be made from fossil fuels and this is no basis for an energy policy.

The CAT document covers a 20 year period because it aims for zero carbon - the lights will not go out if sufficient investment in renewables is made.

With regard to CCS, E.On has not committed itself to using CCS on the proposed plant at Kingsnorth; when Bob Taylor, E.On's MD of generation, was asked whether he was 100% confident of CCS being fitted, he said "That is a really difficult question... In reality until we understand the true economics of operating an integrated carbon capture and storage system at scale, I find it difficult to answer."

So the fitting (or not) of CCS comes down to profits.

David Davison

Chattenden, Wednesday 13 August 2008

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Brian, 1998 was the warmest year on record because of an El Niño event amplifying the mean global temperature. The recent slight slowing of the warming is due to a shift towards more frequent La Niña conditions in the Pacific since 1998. These bring cool water up from the depths of the Pacific Ocean, cooling global temperatures.

2005 was an unusually warm year, the second highest in the global record, but was not associated with El Niño conditions that boosted the warmth of 1998.

Despite the inter-annual variability that is observed within our climate, in a series of temperature observations dating back over 150 years, the warmest 10 years have all been since 1995.

A calculation of the temperature change over the latest decade (1998-2007) alone shows a continued warming of 0.1 °C per decade.

In future, we will continue to see global temperatures rise and fall year-on-year. This does not mean that global warming has stopped; only that the continuing rise in temperatures due to man made emissions of greenhouse gases is being temporarily masked.

This information, and more, is available from the Met Office's web site, this is a good starting point: http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/corporate/pressoffice/myths/1.html

With respect to the "sheer fantasy" you refer to for renewable energy, please read "ZeroCarbonBritain - An Alternative Energy Strategy" by the Centre for Alternative Technology.

David Davison

Chattenden, Wednesday 13 August 2008

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Isn't it an indisputable fact that the global temperature has been falling for the last ten years and that "global warming" has become "climate change" to disguise this inconvenient truth? Isn't it also true that Hansen has been adjusting baseline figures to exaggerate the extent of any changes?

Come back in ten years when half our present power stations have closed down and explain how to heat and light our homes and run our businesses. It's sheer fantasy to suggest that we can replace all of this capacity from renewable resources in the time available and efficiency measures won't even begin to come close to closing the energy gap.

Brian Phillips

New Ash Green, Wednesday 13 August 2008

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Sarah, there is just 'evidence'. It's not for or against in itself. Please look at some of this evidence - people have given plenty of links here to choose from. Then draw your own conclusions. Are you _sure_ all those people are wrong? How much do you want to bet your current way of life on them being wrong?

And No, I don't believe in god. That _is_ unprovable mumbo jumbo. Climate change is different - it's science.

Mr Wookey

Cambridge, Wednesday 13 August 2008

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"Funny how there is "evidence" of climate change, but only "theories" for doubting it"

What do you mean by this Sarah? I don't understand. Are you trying to say that you can't find any evidence to disprove the theory and so actually yes you agree that human impact on climate change is real?

Can we please leave the magic beans etc.. out of this, it's a really serious discussion.

S W

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Hoo, Wednesday 13 August 2008

Funny how there is "evidence" of climate change, but only "theories" for doubting it.

Sure you wouldn't like some magic beans? Oh and I have a sick sister who needs £10k for an operation. You probably believe in God too, don't you?

Sarah Higgins

Tonbridge, Wednesday 13 August 2008

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SW, thank you for your posting. We thought we had put postcards through all the houses in Hoo - sorry we appeared to have missed you out.

KCAM has a meeting for members on Monday, 18th August at 7:30pm at the Sunlight Centre in Gillingham. The meeting is not for the general public but, as someone wishing to join KCAM, you would be very welcome.

There is no membership fee to pay or anything like that - you just need to turn up and introduce yourself.

To quote our postcard:

"Kingsnorth Climate Action Medway is a group of local people, local charities, local groups and local businesses who are committed to opposing the proposed development of a new coal fired power station at Kingsnorth, Medway."

David Davison KCAM Member

Chattenden, Tuesday 12 August 2008

(Continued from previous post)

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Dave Merrall: Having been to the 2 previous climate camps and involved in this movement in between the camps, I can assure you that the idea is certainly not to "make decisions" for anyone. The camp itself is run by consensus, which for those who don't know, means that important decisions are made by anyone who wishes to input. In fact, it is business and government who are making decisions for you, even though the business leaders are not elected and the voter turn out for the last election was pitifully low. Personally I do not think we really live in a democracy, and the closest I've ever come to true democracy has been at the climate camp.

To Richard Thames: I think if the protest wasn't going to change anyone's mind or was a waste of time, then the police would not have been doing their utmost to put people off coming to the camp- especially locals. They would have just sent some riot police in to deal with the day of action on Saturday. As for choosing to go on a 'free holiday' – what do you mean by that? Many if not most of the people attending the camp had taken time off work to go there. I do believe it has made people think, if not totally changed their mind- local blogger Sheila Mudge for one (who I would like to thank for writing an interesting and fair account of her experiences) and the reporters on this website as well (who I also want to congratulate on their coverage of the camp)

"I totally agree with you Sarah, its just another excuse for this government to tax us to the hilt. Katy I don't need to think again before I agree with her, I know my own mind thank you."

Peter- you are right- the government are using climate change as an excuse to tax us to the hilt- that's unacceptable- but that doesn't mean that climate change isn't happening due to human behaviour. It just means that the government are more interested in taxing citizens than getting out of bed with big business.

And with respect, you may know your own mind- I don't doubt that you do- but have you thoroughly weighed the evidence FOR man made climate change as well as the arguments AGAINST? Why are you so convinced that the few sources you have received your information from are more in the right than over a thousand scientists who contributed to the IPCC reports, institutions like NASA and publications such as New Scientist for example?

"Most people in this country are not worried where the power comes from as long as its cheap and reliable"

Trevor, I really hope you are wrong about that- not only because over 150,000 per people are already dying from the effects of climate change (according to the World Health Organisation) but because if we don't address the pollution caused by using fossil fuels for our energy, then climate change is going to make life in the UK pretty uncomfortable to say the least.

Katy Fowler

Nottingham, Tuesday 12 August 2008

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Sorry- this is going to be long reply!

"If you think that less than 200 years of human contribution of additional carbon to the atmosphere can alter the ambient temprature on the planet, perhaps you'd like to buy some magic beans I just happen to have?"

Sarah- perhaps the Met Office might be interested in your magic beans? Here's a quote from their climate change FAQ's:

'The exchange of 'man-made' carbon dioxide between man-made emissions, atmosphere, ocean and land, is about 7 GtC per year, which also shows much larger natural exchanges between atmosphere and ocean (about 90 GtC/yr) and atmosphere and land (about 60 GtC/yr). However, these natural exchanges have been in balance for many thousands of years, leading to the pre-industrial concentration of CO2 remaining steady at about 280 ppm. The effect of the additional man-made emissions is to unbalance the budget and lead to the rise in concentrations seen since about 1850.'

Or maybe NASA? Here's a quote on climate change from their website:

'Previous major global-scale changes in climate, the ice ages, were a product of orbital changes that occur over thousands of years, not tens of years as the current warming has. Shorter-scale changes, such as the "Little Ice Age," have been linked to changes in solar output. Neither orbit variation nor solar output changes can explain the current warming, so it's very likely that greenhouse gases are the culprit. The industrial activities that our modern civilization depends upon have raised atmospheric concentrations of carbon dioxide and methane to higher levels than at any point during the last 650,000 years.'

"And for the record, the UK is probably one of the least polluters"

For the record, Sarah, where did you get that information? I have read in a report by the World Development Movement that the average citizen in the UK each year emits more than the average citizens of 164 other countries containing 5.4 billion people- that's 84% of the world's population. That hardly sounds like we are one of the least- certainly we're not one of the worst, like the USA, Canada and Australia- but we have only 1% of the global population yet are responsible for 2% of global CO2.

Although China's emissions are growing rapidly (due to an industrial economic boom- see the link there, anyone?) the emissions per person are still much, much smaller than ours, even though our population is so much smaller. We emit on average in this country 9-10 tonnes of CO2 per person per year. A Chinese person emits 3.62 tonnes. They emit 17.4% of the global total and have 20.4% of the global population.

Can you please list for us who exactly has discredited man made climate change? I think that's only fair seeing as I and others here have given examples of places where the EVIDENCE (as John Doddson has said, nothing in science is ever fact- I'm surprised you don't know that yourself as you seem to be so scientifically knowledgeable) is pretty clear from reputable sources that the emissions of CO2 since the Industrial Revolution has indeed contributed to climate change. Plus- who said I had "beloved Cambridge academics"?! I didn't even post about that book, someone else did!

But since you insist- there is quite a good graph from the most recent IPCC report which shows that the actual rises in global temperature follow much more closely the natural and man made forcings combined, rather than simply natural forcings on their own. Here is the address to the page: http://www.ipcc.ch/graphics/graphics/syr/fig2-5.jpg

I hope that's enough 'proof' for you, but somehow I doubt it.

(Continued...)

Katy Fowler

Nottingham, Tuesday 12 August 2008

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David

In the very long term, it is something we as a country should work towards, but please, be real, NOW.

The grid is soon to loose many thousands of megawatts from the pool as stations close between 2012 and 2015. Power plants and infrastructure take years to build. The technologies you talk of are no more viable or ready, in the scale we need, than CCS you object to - if they were, then they would be invested in.

The most reliable and viable renewable is wind power, which is invested in where planning is approved. Even tidal and wave power are still in development....after how many years????

By the time the technology is ready and built, the lights would have gone off.

Like I said before about recycling our waste, this change is a very long road and I am afraid, in the interim, we need something to keep the lights on.

For me, coal is a better option than gas, because at least with coal we could be self sufficient and not held to ransom over price and supply. This keeps it affordable and allows the CCS trails to take place.

One step backwards could give us ten steps forward.

R H

Hoo, Tuesday 12 August 2008

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David, How can I get involved with KCAM?? didn't know about it until the climate camp!

Thanks

S W

Hoo, Tuesday 12 August 2008

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RH of Hoo, if investment is made in renewable energy, there will not be an energy shortfall.

For RH and others, in terms of a backup supply for "when the wind and sun are not available", hydrogen can be used sustainably for energy storage and tidal lagoons can help match availability of electricity with demand.

I would also suggest people read "ZeroCarbonBritain - An Alternative Energy Strategy" by the Centre for Alternative Technology. This report shows very clearly that renewables can provide the answer.

In America, S. David Freeman has written a book ("Winning Our Energy Independence: An Energy Insider Shows How,") giving the message that America has all the renewable energy they need to create a sustainable future for our planet.

These examples show that fossil fuels and nuclear power need play no part in our future.

David Davison KCAM Member

Chattenden, Tuesday 12 August 2008

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If Sarah Higgins knew anything whatsoever about science, she would know that there is no such thing as "scientific proof".

There are ONLY theories backed up by supporting evidence - period!

Even gravity is only a theory. However, it is possible to DISPROVE theories, so perhaps Sarah would like to try and disprove the theory of gravity? (Hey, it's only a theory after all - it could be wrong.)

Scientists love a bit of disagreement, one-upmanship and proving each other wrong. Therefore, theories which nobody has disproven generally become accepted science after some period of time. The theories surrounding human-induced climate change are founded upon accepted science which has gone back at least a century to Svante Arrhenius, if not before.

So what we have now around human-caused climate change is the largest scientific consensus in history, based on theories which have been accepted science for over a century. Theories which nobody has yet disproven - especially not that opportunist charlatan Martin Durkin! (Not even close, Martin!)

If Sarah Higgins is silly enough to discredit the widely accepted scientific theories around climate change that have been proposed and peer-reviewed by the likes of NASA, Oxford & Cambridge universities, The Royal Society, American Academy of Sciences, Prof Stephen Hawking and more, then there really is no hope for some people.

Sarah appears to be a textbook case of "climate change denial" - ignoring the evidence because she doesn't think it will affect her.

John Doddson

Rochester, Tuesday 12 August 2008

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Mel Evans, leader of the protesters assured my wife face to face,eye to eye that our house,which was one of the closest to the day of action,would not have it's boundaries invaded. Evans even asked my wife to point out our house on the map whilst giving her "assurances". There was absolutely no need for the protesters to continually walk/run past our open back fence,but from 8.30 am on saturday morning we had a constant line of them.What's more they trampled the farmer's crops whilst fleeing back from the police presence.At the moment they were running/trespassing they did not give a damn about the crops, just playing a silly childish game with the ever professional police.It would have been very easy for Mel Evans to instruct all the protesters to avoid undue stress on the locals closest to the protest (some were even supportive of the action),but any credibility of any ethics on the part of the protesters was quickly lost here. The demographic,as seen close up and personal by us were the alleged hardcore layabout benefit scroungers,misguided gap year students and old hippies.Apologies to any protesters NOT fitting that dynamic (which couldn't have been many). If the protesters had genuinely wanted to highlight their cause and gain support nationally,a far more constructive action would have been an army of them collecting litter locally whilst gently persuading people of human induced climate change. However this course of action is hardly likely to happen in the future as it doesn't involve a week of jolly camping,drinking and mutual back slapping and ego massaging of the leaders.Every solo protester who walked past my house had no reason to be there prior to the march,other than to return to camp as some kind of "hero" because of his/her reconaissance mission.....pathetic stuff.I personally have no time for people who blatantly lie or go back on their word,for the fundamental reason that it brings into question the integrity and truth behind anything they do in life.

paul jackson

hoo, Tuesday 12 August 2008

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Sarah, you tell them, I think you know more than they ever will.

Meanwhile, bring on the new power station, lets get it built as soon as. When approval is granted as i'm sure it will be, lets keep those so called green protesters out this time.

Barbed wire & alsations will do nicely.

Peter Fisher

Kent, Tuesday 12 August 2008

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Sorry, below I meant to say 'we' are all used to having electricity 24/7!

S W

Hoo, Tuesday 12 August 2008

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In 1987, the Montreal Protocol was signed internationally to prevent CFCs which deplete ozone being put into the atmosphere. There was a great deal of hoo-ha about that. People scoffing etc. Yet it was deemed that the science was strong enough to make it a good move.

The fact is, is it better to act to take precautions than to carry on pumping carbon into the atmosphere? There's almost international consensus on this now. Even GW Bush is coming round. It's just common sense to be very very very careful. This government has not built a coal-fired power station for 30 years - that's because of the environmental cost/damage.

The Climate Camp has done one thing spectacularly well - got us debating this thing that otherwise is being debated by politicians and governments alone.

It was the police that decided how heavy to be, how expensive to be, how aggressive to be. Riot police and helicopters - where were we? Guantanamo?

btw, every local who i've spoken to who went to the camp to see for themselves had nothing but praise for it. By the end of the week there were also quite a number of regulars turning up.

Jane Trowell

Higham, Kent, Tuesday 12 August 2008

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There is no need to put a proof on here, it's all over the internet, it's in the news (although after 1st hand experience of climate camp and the way it was reported I now have very little faith in the media), it's everywhere, people fighting a battle to enlighten those who will not believe the FACTS.

I would rather take the woud of a NASA scientist Dr James Hansen

(see: http://www.giss.nasa.gov/ and

http://arstechnica.com/journals/science.ars/2006/1/30/2703 ) than Mr/Mrs Bloggs from Medway, especially when Mr and Mrs Bloggs just keep blurting out insulting unsubstantiated junk.

In Science, things are proved or disproved, I don't think there's really any middle ground, so when facts are out there to prove the HUMAN effect on climate change (see links above for example), please provide links to evidence to the contrary.

Thanks to climate camp I have been propelled to find out more about these issues and EDUCATE myself by researching and talking to others, and then construct an EDUCATED opinion. I will now fight against kingsnorth, from my research I have come to the conclusion that they have no intention of using CCS (there are leaked emails between eon and the government, interested people can read articles here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/feb/01/fossilfuels.carbonemissions

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/jul/27/carboncapturestorage.activists

and here, where you can download the emails:

http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/blog/climate/coal-giant-dictates-government-climate-policy-20080131

There were other reports as well which are easy to find with a google search. I know people are concerned about the alternatives if Kingsnorth is not built as you are all so used to having as much electricity as you want 24/7. I do not have the answer to this, but if we all reduce what we use, offices and street lamps lit up all night long could be reduced to a minimum for starters?? There are many ways and again many informative websites with suggestions. Renewables are a solution if they have funding for more research, we don't just need to rely on wind, there are others. It's a huge battle, trying to convince the likes of Mr/Mrs Bloggs and our government who have sold out to big companies and really have little control over the country anyway (but that's another matter) and sometimes the size of this daunts me but I will not give up.

The hole in the ozone layer CAUSED BY HUMANS is gradually reducing due to people standing up and getting CFCs banned. Does this not count as a human impact on climate change Sarah? Seeing as it is now slowly healing itself after we have stopped the very things that caused it in the first place?

Anyway, this is merely my opinion, and I will continue to find out as much as i can about these issues (with some useful information and opinions from some people on here) and I will be there and do whatever i can to stop KIngsnorth (unless i find out facts to make me change my mind) I think human impact on climate change is worth standing up for, a strong oak tree grows from a tiny acorn.

People, please do your own research, find out for yourselves, if you find FACTS to the contrary I would be glad to hear it and you may change my mind.

:-)

S W

Hoo, Tuesday 12 August 2008

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Some common sense on the cost of policing, perhaps people should think about the reports today of the cost to the taxpayer of policing footbal matches. The camp was a one off event, but the police will continue to provide a prescence outside gillignham railway station and on the high streets as they have done for many years on home match days. Likewise they will have to clear up outside the casino rooms every friday and saturday night, and be called to disperse troublemakers from street corners on the UK towns and cities. If the costs are of such a concern to the subscribers get on to your local forces and ask them under the FOI act what those costs are.

On the serious issue of climate change, if the postings over the last week haven't convinced you that we are facing the biggest threat to humanity ever then I hope you dont swallow any sand.

T M

Medway, Tuesday 12 August 2008

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Katy, I think you'll find it's the climate change myth that's been discredited. No matter all the hype, guff and misinformation, NO ONE yet has proved that since the Industrial Revolution man has contributed in any way to climate change.

I invite you to prove with the aid of your beloved "Cambridge academics" (I work at a university and they aren't all boffins I can tell you!) to detail here your proof. After all, the onus of proof should be on the people making the claims and you appear to be claiming that man causes climate change despite the fact that climate change has happened for millennia. Good luck!

Sarah Higgins

Tonbridge, Tuesday 12 August 2008

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That some people are still denying the existence and seriousness of global warming is remarkable. There is no serious doubt about it any more.

I don't suppose there is much I can say to change such people's minds but I feel obliged to answer the "UK emissions are irrelevant in comparison to China's emmissions" point.

In fact the chinese currently emit less than half as much carbon per person as we do - that makes us significantly worse polluters in any fair measure. Europe as a whole emits about 20% more CO2 than China, and its emissions per person are twice as much.

And don't forget that a good chunk of China's emissions are actually atributable to us in the west as they are due to making all the cheap 'stuff' we buy. In fact the levels of UK imports/exports is such that the embodied energy of all this stuff, just about doubles each of our carbon footprints - i.e. we generate a similar amount of carbon from heating, travel, work, entertainment on the one hand and 'getting stuff made in the rest of the world (mostly China)' on the other. So pretending that China's emissions have nothing to do with us is wrong.

Then there is the historical aspect: one thing not many people really appreciate about CO2 emissions is that it is primarily about the total amount put in the atmosphere so far, rather than the rate of doing so. Much of the carbon we added to the atmosphere in the industrial revolution is still there, because it is only very slowly removed into the oceans (this is the fundamental problem). Summing total emissions since 1769, the UK is the 2nd worst polluter in the world (in tons CO2 per year per person), overtaken only by the USA (just). The fact that we are now emitting a lot less than when we made all the ships and steel here, does not absolve us of the responsibilty for the mess we have left so far.

All these numbers are in that book I mentioned ('Without hot air'). And pretty graphs make it s lot clearer than this message.

Anyone still claiming that climate change is a 'scare story' has not read the data, which is now very accessible - please check your facts.

The concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere has risen from the 280ppm it was for 1000 years before the industrial revolution to 340ppm now. Exactly what happens above these levels is hard to predict but the general trends are clear and we need to stabilise at a level around 450ppm to keep the climate more or less as it is now, and support current population levels. This level will be passed in about 20 years time. When you consider how long it takes to build power stations, and the rate emissions are still rising, you can see that we haven't got long to seriously scale back emissions

Mr Wookey

Cambridge, Tuesday 12 August 2008

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Trev Joyce - by posting on here you've just proved yourself wrong I'm afraid. The camp has achieved lots, including heightened awareness of the whole situation, and lots of media coverage. None of us would be posting on here otherwise!

As with many of the posts on here, people are proving themselves to be ignorant of the FACTS:

Climate Change caused by humans is a reality. This is now SCIENCE, not myth or political spin. Burning coal is making this worse. Yes, there have been huge fluctuations in global temperature and climate over the lifetime of the planet, but scientists are saying that WE are causing this current situation. To those who are saying we're not - please be kind enough to post links to credible scientific evidence (not links to journalism or opinion).

I realise that this is a forum for opinions, not a scientific journal, but it's quite frustrating to read comments from people who just seem to be spouting off without reading previous posts, thinking deeply about what they are saying, or doing some independent research into the facts.

The current situation facing mankind is more important than what we THINK, it's about what we KNOW, and what we can DO. I don't think this can be disputed!

Mark Road

Hoo, Monday 11 August 2008

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What a complete and total waste of time and money, nothing achieved by the climate camp protesters. They havent a clue, most people in this country are not worried where the power comes from as long as its cheap and reliable. bring on the new COAL Kingsnorth and lets build many more. Send them over to China and let them protest over there, then see how far they get.

trev joyce

gillingham, Monday 11 August 2008

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I totally agree with you Sarah, its just another excuse for this government to tax us to the hilt.

Katy I don't need to think again before I agree with her, I know my own mind thank you.

This country needs to produce its own electricity & gas so that we are not held to ransom by the east. Wind power is fine, but we can't reply on that alone, so lets get on & build this new power station & others too.

Peter Fisher

Kent, Monday 11 August 2008

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I think this is a load of rubbish. Protesting against this sort of power supply is an absolute waste of time.

To the climate camp protestors,has this crossed your mind; Had you not chose to go on a free holiday as someone said before, had you thought about the pollution the cars/vans cause to the atomosphere that the police use every day to babysit you lot, not to mention ferrying 100 "kids" who are obviously bound by immaturity and cannot behave to the police station.

Congratulations, your silly protest (which will of course, not change anyones mind) has just polluted the atmosphere even more. Some protest.

Richard Thames

Kent, Monday 11 August 2008

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In regards to Sarah Higgins reply to Mr Wookey's post- please read these two carefully in comparison if you are inclined to agree with Ms Higgins or have done so in the past.

Yes, the things that Mr Wookey are relating are scary- but does he really sound hysterical? Does Ms Higgins really sound like she knows what she's talking about?

This is the crux of the 'debate' which is preventing the people of this country from getting together to make the necessary changes to a low carbon economy and are letting business and government lead us in the opposite direction from where we need to go to have even some semblance of a livable environment in the next 50 years.

Mr Wookey was talking about a book written by a Cambridge academic who he says has done thorough research into the subject. Ms Higgins is repeating arguments against man made climate change which have been discredited again and again by many sources in the scientific community. The people who propound these erroneous theories often are funded by oil companies or are from pseudo-scientific think- tanks set up by fossil fuel interests. Maybe the author of the book Mr. Wookey is talking about is funded by enivronmentalists who want us all to return to the dark ages or by the government who are making climate change up so they can tax us to high heaven- I don't know. But it doesn't seem likely. Google him and find out! That's all it takes usually to find out where the motives of these people lie.

But please think again if you are in agreement with Ms. Higgins, because the 'theory' that she is proposing is just a convenient salve for some very serious information that we simply must engage with and act on if we are to survive.

Katy Fowler

Nottingham, Monday 11 August 2008

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Can the police give the ratepayers of Kent a breakdown of where these several millions went that the policing cost.

The police have been harping on about being poorly paid recently but what they are asking for here seems very excessive and maybe Mike Fuller should look at the cost effectiveness of his men and the machinery they use

Francis Empson

Margate, Monday 11 August 2008

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Well said Sarah I agree with each and every word.

I think these people will have to be honest and say they flopped big time in everything they tried to do.

I saw one 'spokesman' on T.V. saying there were important decisions to be made in the future. Maybe he was correct but I certainly do not need him to make these decisions for me.

I could not believe it when I read the cost of policing this was 'millions'.

These idiots should never have been booted out the minute they arrived rather than be allowed to cost us tax payers all that kind of money.

Dave Merrall

Gillingham, Monday 11 August 2008

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"To avoid catastrophic change to the environment in the next 30-50 years we need to reduce our carbon emissions by _90_ percent. Mr Wookey."

I'm sorry, but this is a steaming great pile of hysterical claptrap. Temperatures on Earth have always risen and fallen. Mankind just happens to be around during a period of time where it happens to be rising slowly. If you think that less than 200 years of human contribution of additional carbon to the atmosphere can alter the ambient temprature on the planet, perhaps you'd like to buy some magic beans I just happen to have?

Green-taxes etc are merely another method of parting us with our money and with scare-stories like Mr Wookey's proliferating in the media, gullible people buying this "we can save the environment by going green" nonsense, I'm not surprised that these protests take place.

Yes, the world would be a better place without all the pollution, but I wasn't born yesterday if you think I'll believe this rubbish about climate change.

And for the record, the UK is probably one of the least polluters. I've read that if the UK went totally "green" tomorrow, China would make up the shortfall in around a week. Want to make a difference? Go protest in China!

Sarah Higgins

Tonbridge, Monday 11 August 2008

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S.K. And others ask 'Where can I get an unbiased view of the options for energy production alternatives to coal?'.

A good answre is 'No hot air' - a book by David McKay, a Cambridge Physics professor. He has no particular axe to grind, and just does his best to put real numbers on how much power we use, and how much you can get from various sorts of renewable energy, and somethig about the monetary, social and environmental costs of implementing those forms of generation.

http://www.withouthotair.com/

Its a book everyone should read, and it makes extremely sobering reading( especially the notes which accompany it).

To avoid catastrophic change to the environment in the next 30-50 years we need to reduce our carbon emissions by _90_ percent. Not 10% or 20%, but 90%. That's a very big deal, and worse than that, it is probably already too late to make the sort of radical changes needed across the world, short of getting on to a war footing in the next couple of years, and it is clear from the comments on this site and the media reaction to the climate camp that there is no danger of that happening.

Your lives may feel fine at the moment, with perhaps some annoying price rises in fuel, heating, and food, but that is because you haven't appreciated how serious things _already_ are (because the effects so far are not particularly dramatic). Get used to the price rises - you haven't seen anything yet. Energy is going to get very expensive if it gets scarce (and it probably will). An awful lot of things will need to change in response to that, and we have to dramatically reduce our (and all other developed and developing countries') carbon emmissions.

A 15% more efficient car or boiler is not going to prevent disaster - a total change in the way power is generated and used, how we heat our homes, how we travel, how businesses operate is the only way (short of stopping the rest of the world emiting any carbon so we can carry on as we have been) to avoid a ruined biosphere.

This is why the people at the climate camp are so excercised and why people knowledgable about this subject are depressed.

I hadn't appreciated just how bad things were until very recently. Educate yourself (this book is a pretty good way of doing it, but there are other good sources online I'm sure), then make changes to your lifestyle immediately (insulation, wood-burner, solar thermal hot water, telecommuting, pushbike, electric moped, more trains, fewer planes, low-energy lighting, less beef, fewer children, etc), and start kicking everyone else to do so too, including our elected representatives, who say good words but have been highly complacent so far and show no signs of taking sufficient action sufficiently quickly to save their populace.

I know this message makes me sound like a nutter to some of you, but I'm just a software engineer who recently took an interest in renewable energy.

Things really are very bad indeed already and 'business as usual' means we are getting very close (if its not too late already) to the point where it will be to late to prevent disastrous climate change (London, new york, san fancisco, bangaladesh, all underwater, millions starving, mass extinctions and other bad stuff).

Anyone with children _has_ to take this seriously. Minor annoyances about hippies camping nearby and the price of petrol are irrelevant - we have much more serious problems to worry about.

Sorry to be so negative, but this is what happens if you take a good look at the numbers. Read that book - hopefully you'll be shocked into action, or at least understanding. I was.

Mr Wookey

Cambridge, Monday 11 August 2008

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I find the whole debate confusing.

We dont want coal fired power stations (even though they are much cleaner than those existing), we dont want nuclear, we dont even want wind turbines (seems they make a horrible whoosing noise!)

So how do we think we will (economically) generate electricity?

However, I do find the Kingsnorth debate interesting at a social level. Police demonstrate [how ] like all bullies very brave when in a group) - the so-called 'arms cache' made me squirm with embarrassment. Get yourselves down the highstreets on a Saturday night and dont forget the riot gear, lads.

Secondly, some people just dont seem to get that protesting is as much a demonstration of our rights under a civilised society as an action on a given subject. Perhaps if some of these individuals got their noses out of Hello magazine / The Sun and made an attempt to understand the issues they might be rather glad that someone else was prepared to spend their time and effort to make sure we are able to do so.

Gordon Savage

Gillingham, Sunday 10 August 2008

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I have been associated with the area over 40 years.

I live in Cliffe Woods.

I was in the REs for 23 years.

I became a "Civvy" 22 years ago.

SO I FEEL I CAN COMMENT.

I went and stood on the Upchat Road a week ago on Saturday to watch the protesters as they marched to Kingsnorth.

A bit of a damp squib I and the Police I spoke to thought.

Yesterday I left Cliffe Woods and walked through woods and farmland to access the climate camp- just to see it before it closed and to make up my own mind.

The Police were very helpful and polite and I met with a number of the protesters and spoke with them.

As to be expected there were radicals, there were academics, there were those who were less than lucid and there were others who were a bit off the scale.

Pretty much like the same people who I met on the march to Aldermaston in the 60's.

Its good to live in a country where we can protest, peacefuly, unlike the residents in China, Tibet, Georgia et al.

Scouse

Richard Burns

Cliffe Woods, Sunday 10 August 2008

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In response to Mark Road's comment- there's no point selling up and moving away as the rest of the UK is ignorant & bigoted in opinion (if you ever read some of the debates on news websites you can see why I would think this).

As for the debate I am neither for or against- I, like others, think that it went a little OTT from both parties. I think the opinion of some on here of "protest peacefully but don't break the law" absurd as sometimes laws need to be broken for change- but also I think the protesters should have expected some heavy-handedness if they are to break any laws.

As for whether we should have a coal power station- well coal's not very good but no-one likes nuclear, a solar plant wouldn't work with the semi-permanent cloud, the winds would be too strong and directional for wind turbines (not to mention the supposed danger to the birds around here), and I'm not sure about hydroelectric- maybe the tides would be too strong/weak/wrong direction or maybe it's the fact that we have so many ships for Thamesport.

Oh the dilemma!

K M

Isle of Grain, Sunday 10 August 2008

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I agree with you Mark, but I beg the question of what can we do to make this village a better place? Actually, scrap that - what can we do to make this village a community, much how I recall it being as I was growing up here.

Are there any volunteer workshops or meetings on issues affecting our village and the surrounding villages (ie, Climate Camp, Climate Change in general, or whatever issue rears it's ugly head next!)? And I don't mean council meetings - I mean real meetings where intelligent, like minded people can come to discuss these things on a regular basis? Where unknowledgable people can come and learn and share their views? If only a small group of people were to do something like this, it would restore a little of the faith that I've lost in this village.

I realise this a vague idea like this may be poo-pooed by a majority of people on this forum, but perhaps it is something we should think about.

Should anything feasible come of ideas like this one then I'd be happy to offer my help. If there are groups or workshops going on locally then please tell me!

G N

Hoo, Sunday 10 August 2008

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Oh Andy really, you should read more carefully to get the full jist of what I am saying

Firstly, it's not accusation in my post of yesterday. I have raised a question which simply invokes people to think about this….. it is fine to go march and protest, but hypocritical if you say one thing and do another

Yes, I did explore and have a quote for a wind turbine and solar power but could not afford the £32k. The majority of people in this country do not have land large enough for ground source heat pumps, or money to buy their own decentralised energy, especially as most decentralised sources like solar can take on average 20-30 years to even pay for themselves. Therefore, people rely on the grid, just as you and I do, when plugging in our PCs.

You are right, I have spent no time at the camp and had no intention of doing so. As you will see from my posts of 5th August and 4th August, I am quite well informed. I can see both sides of the debate having read much internet coverage (not apathetic – I have put some effort into this in order to make up my mind). Perhaps it is the campers that need to be enlightened more. This is a single focus group, carbon carbon carbon. What about 24/7 supply and affordability?

I am not against moving to low carbon power supply, it is the right thing to do, but I do realise that there is only so much that can be achieved in the timescales required.

•

When Kingsnorth closes by 2012 / 2015 (along with many other power plants who do not meet the Euro LCPD and other old nuclear sites) there will be a shortage on the grid and not everyone will be able to have electricity 24/7.

•

Companies are investing in renewables (eg London Array) but you need that back up supply for when the wind and sun are not available. Wind power runs 30-35% of the time and I for one want our emergency services and industry to have power 24/7. This means having Damhead Creek, Grain or Kingsnorth available.

•

Finding room and obtaining planning permission for 2000 wind turbines to replace Kingsnorth and having them built before 2015 is likely to be unachievable (and you still need that back up supply).

•

Coal provides an affordable supply of electricity compared to gas (£ just up by 35%) and renewables which are much more expensive to build in the first instance, which is then just added into he cost of your electricity bill.

•

Decentralised power is a long way off because of people's ability to pay for it or their enthusiasm to have it (look how many years it has taken for people to start recycling their waste and we are no where near reducing it from being manufactured in the first place)

This event was supposed to be peaceful and have no impact on the village. I could live with that and be happy that it brings the topic into debate. However, the intent was made clear – breaking into a power station and breaking the law – I do not want to be associated with that hence why I had no intention of visiting the camp.

I believe we need to be realistic. The Kingsnorth project gives opportunity to prove this CCS technology. The government should allow planning for this plant, but perhaps no more plants until the technology is in place. If it works, great, if it doesn't, well at least we keep the lights on to buy more time.

Is this coherent response good enough for you? Please don't think all us villagers are ignorant to the facts.

What is great about this site is that everyone gets opportunity to have their say in full, without being shouted down. I probably wouldn't have stood a chance of saying all this in a public meeting.

Have a nice Sunday

R H

Hoo, Sunday 10 August 2008

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I joined in the peaceful march to Kingsnorth yesterday and at no time did anyone in that group break the law. I did, however, witness a member of the mounted police using their baton on a person marching at the front. I can only assume this was because they tried to walk in front of the horse. I left my children behind because after watching events in the past week I did not trust the police, I have not witnessed any violence from protestors. Whilst I was on the march my sixteen year old son was stopped, searched and questioned for walking his dog in Upper Stoke. This is the same son who at fourteen was assaulted by a man in his thirties when he was waiting for the school bus. The police responded three days later! Are we turning into a police state where the people with the money and power are the only ones who count, I thought we had freedom of speech.

Jo Barrett

Middle Stoke, Sunday 10 August 2008

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GN, I wholeheartedly agree with your comments about seeing a side of our fellow villagers that I'm ashamed of. And some of the comments on here from other Hoo residents are quite horrible, and, as far as I can tell - unjustified, unless they'd like to back up their accusations with hard fact.

As a Hoo resident, I intend to make sure I start speaking to my neighbours and people on the street more. We need more community spirit, aspiration, friendliness, open mindedness, and education in this village - and if the climate camp achieves nothing else, it has highlighted that. There is bigotry and a real lack of knowledge here.

After some locals' reaction this week, I have half a mind to sell my house and move away from the area. However, I won't - I intend to stay and make my contribution to creating a more friendly, intelligent and open minded society.

I fully expect some nasty come-backs to this post, but if anyone has any suggestions to how we can change our village for the better, please go ahead and let me know. Again, I'm more than happy to meet people to discuss this, or the climate camp.

Mark Road

Hoo, Sunday 10 August 2008

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To follow on from Andy Rogers' comments, yes he was voted unanimously to do the job and an excellent one he has done.

David Davison

Chattenden, Saturday 9 August 2008

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RH, Just to respond to your accusations,Actually no I dont have any renewable energy supplies on my property. However, I do buy my energy from 100% renewable energy suppliers. Do you? Also RH, I doubt you have spent any time at all this past week at the camp trying to enlighten yourself seeing as you seem to be completely oblivious to the issues surrounding the debate. Thus you have not been having your human rights trampled for the past week to stand up and be counted for something you believe in either. I just love people like you, afflicted with the ability to mouth off, but not a social conscience or a sense of moral responsibility, in short armchair politics and apathy are the name of the game here. Perhaps you'd like to put a coherent argument together and prove me wrong, I doubt it. As for the five minutes of fame thing, I was actually voted in unanimously to do a job on behalf of others. I have done so.

Andy Rogers

Wainscott, Saturday 9 August 2008

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The Police were right to be here, the idiots that i saw today were not here for a peaceful protest but more to ruin fields and basically here for trouble.

This camp has been a weeks holiday for the unemployed, and for the uperclass to upset a small village in Kent. The only reason that the Police were here because of the mindless idiots they had to babysit

Jack Cooke

Hoo, Saturday 9 August 2008

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I believe Jane Trowell is right to say that Kingsnorth is a test case for new coal-fired power stations, not just in the UK but globally and this web page summarises why I think Jane is right:

http://www.nonewcoal.org.uk/?q=node/4

It is well worth spending some time looking at the Kent climate change map near the bottom of the page.

David Davison KCAM Member

Chattenden, Saturday 9 August 2008

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..What happens with all the police video footage, the CPR (Car plate recognition). Was I the only one who spottted the white van recording all car movements in and out of the site area? If we drive close to other protest sites or events are we likely to be stopped/aprehended?

There's a lot of video, data collection of personal information been going on for the week and it would be good to get some statement from the police on what will happen with this. It just reminds me of the East German Police VOPOs upto the late 80s, who would collect all sorts of personal data, hair, body samples etc.(prio to DNA developments), the archives included 10's of thousands of bottled samples.Welcome to Big Brother country.

To the climate camp, GREAT WORK TODAY, I'M PROUD OF YOU ALL.

SH

steve hubbard

Medway, Saturday 9 August 2008

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I've spent quite a bit of time in the past week around the climate camp as a journalist, and hope that the fine people of Hoo, and surrounding areas can get back to normality soon, not sure how long it will take to repair any respect for our police force might take though.

baz c

sittingbourne, Saturday 9 August 2008

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Gee RH, thanks so much for your useful comment!

I think you are right we should just not do anything, LOL!!

I spoke to Andy at climate camp, he is just an ordinary local person who has been thrust into the limelight because he was willing to stand up and be counted. But don't worry RH, we'll still pull you out the water when the sea level rises!

PS. You should know that a lot of the local people who supported the camp this week were also on the Cliffe march :-) Hope that helps!

T M

Gillingham, Saturday 9 August 2008

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On the whole this week has been a triumph for our mature democracy. There are few places in the world where hundreds of people could occupy some land and march through the streets in protest without provoking a severe reaction from the state. Yes, there have been excesses on both sides - a tiny number of protesters declared themselves to be prepared to break the law to achieve their avowed aim of shutting down the power station, and the police officer videoed assaulting a protester with a riot shield clearly used excessive force. In the main, however, protesters, police and local residents have conducted themseleves admirably. We should celebrate the successes of the week, and consign the less savoury incidents to oblivion.

Bernard Lazzari

Hoo, Saturday 9 August 2008

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well.... that didnt work out too well for the protestors did it, loving the climate camps website update of "We`re in!" errm no i dont think so, hardly a great success as the Camp is reporting either, but then again I guess after the major hype they arnt very well going to admit that their plans went a little pear shaped and they made a right pigs ear of it.

So a week of hype with a hilarious ending, bye bye and good ridence

S M

Rochester, Saturday 9 August 2008

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Now that the mass day of action is over who is going to foot the cost. This waste of money time and effort could have been put to better use. I hope there satisfied with how much they have wasted with this folly.We will be glad to see the back of them.

Dave Savage

Hoo, Saturday 9 August 2008

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I agree with a lot Nick Stewart says. Nuclear is preferable to coal (lower carbon emissions, fewer other toxic emissions), but hardly ideal (uranium is filthy stuff to mine, supplies are not infinite or guaranteed, waste storage is an unsolved problem, there are greater risks of nuclear weapons proliferation the more nuclear power stations there are, etc, not to mention costs, delay, public fears, etc). So, after many years as a nuclear agnostic, I would now plump for massive investment in renewables instead (with new technology, solar looks better all the time, wind is viable, tidal is possible, all more likely and sooner than large-scale, affordable CCS (carbon capture and storage). But we must – and can – all get much smarter about energy efficiency: we can live perfectly decent modern lives with much modern technology whilst vastly reducing our energy consumption.

RH asks where the protesters were when you were resisting the airport at Cliffe – remember that that was only ever a kite being flown (to distract attention from expansion plans at Stansted and Heathrow??) and never a concrete proposal, unlike the new Kingsnorth coal-fired power station. Rest assured that if the Cliffe airport proposal ever becomes concrete, the protesters will be out in force.

Meanwhile, let's make the argument for clean energy and a sustainable future.

c c

Canterbury, Saturday 9 August 2008

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Idiots go home and keep your nose out of our lives.

"oh we're concerned about climate change"...what about the damage you are acusing to OUR land by trampling through our countryside...oh and not forgetting the clapped out old bangers you all arrived in?

Bothered about climate change, i doubt it...bored upper class with nothing better to do....probably.

Q B

Kent, Saturday 9 August 2008

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In response to Jane Trowell this is not a global test for coal, very far from it.

A few minutes research on the internet would have revealed that they type of generating units proposed for Kingsnorth are pretty standard technology in electrcity generation. Hundreds of similar units are already in operation, in the US, across Europe and most importantly in China.

So would have a moral leg to stand on with China, well I guess so, seeing as they have already built and are operating units like those proposed for Kingsnorth and will continue to do so.

Carl Camina

London, Saturday 9 August 2008

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I have visited the climate camp site and both myself and my husband were searched 3x. We were vey impressed how the site was run including handwashing facilities outside the toilets.

I feel the police were being way over the top and infringing human rights and the video I saw today 9/8 of a protester being kicked when down was unbelievable II did wonder if we we now living in China!

sheila pettett

lower rainham rd, Saturday 9 August 2008

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p.s. where were all these protestors when we were trying to stop the building of a new airport at Cliffe??

R H

Hoo, Saturday 9 August 2008

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Gee Ami, riviting, thanks.

I wonder if Andy from "the little village of Wainscott" (LOL) has a ground source heat pump, solar panels and wind turbine, or whether he will go plug his PC into the mains tonight to watch his 5 minutes of fame?

As for the stop and search clip, the lady in the green jumper really should not worry that the searching is putting off locals from visiting the camp. The reason we are not flocking there is because we don't want to. Moreover, we can't wait for the campers to all leave so our village can return to normality.

Hi-de-hi

R H

Hoo, Saturday 9 August 2008

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What the police don't tell you is that you do not have to answer their questions. They can search you but you don't have to tell them anything.

So who is upholding the rights of the people?

Simon Marchant

Gillingham, Saturday 9 August 2008

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I have to assume the cars are parked legally...

Look up climate change, peak oil, child labour and ethical consumerism.

Check how far your friends, family and your own house are above sea level. Look at the labels in your kids and your own clothes.

Then be grateful if; your kids don't do 12 hour days for no pay, you can afford to change to a smaller car, you can move to higher ground or if you are not affected. Because for the people of Tuvalu it is too late. They are the worlds first climate change refugees. Bangladesh might be next, with our links to them how many of the 150 million people will you take in?

Don't want to do that?

Then do something to prevent climate change. Like buy less stuff, buy local stuff, buy ethical stuff, use less energy, insulate your home, get involved.

But stop moaning about people who are giving up their own time, and money, to help everyone on the whole planet.

S L

Medway, Saturday 9 August 2008

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Thought I'd share some insightful and eye-opening videos I've just found from the Climate Camp which won't be shown on mainstream media:

These are all fab films from the Climate Camp TV studio http://visionon.tv

http://blip.tv/file/get/Undercurrents-LegalObserversBlockedByPolice135.mp4

http://blip.tv/file/get/Undercurrents-LocalActivistsSupportClimateCamp192.mp4

http://blip.tv/file/get/Undercurrents-ClimateCampProtestIgnoresPoliceStopSearch856.mp4

http://blip.tv/file/get/Undercurrents-ArthurScargillOnTheRightToProtest461.mp4

http://blip.tv/file/get/Undercurrents-WhatDidThePoliceTakeFromYOU160.mp4

Ami Marsden

UK, Saturday 9 August 2008

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In the short term, the government line on this matter, is logical, but does little to lessen the impact on climate change nor does it look good on the international stage when attempting to dictate to China, USA, India etc.

A couple of points I would like to comment on:

Carbon capture is still not totally clean and although proven to work on a small scale has never been tested on the scale of power station usage and of course we have the problem of where to dump the captured carbon? Time estimates for perfecting this technology for use on this scale are circa 12-15 years maybe longer.

A coal burning power station is essential for meeting energy demands at peak times? Peak demands for power in the South East are, believe it or not, currently being met by buying power from France.

Nuclear power sadly has a bad press in this country. Ignorance is not always a blissful thing! The nuclear lobby will only allow nuclear power upgrades on existing sites and the government rather than educate, which it ought to, is happy tow this line.

Renewable energies are a wonderful thing but are not consistent. Wind turbines are great while the wind blows. A river Severn barrage will decimate the immediate environment. Solar power is great provided the skies are clear.

With a national grid that needs an upgrade within 15 years etc etc I believe we need to look long term NOT short term. I appreciate that another coal powered power station at Kingsnorth is unfortunately probably the only viable solution in the immediate term, just to keep the lights on, so to speak!

I find myself becoming increasingly upset at the short sightedness of our supposedly intellectually enlightened population. Like it or not, the increasing value of oil and its finite availability, will see all of us witness a decline in our living standards in the future but, on the flip side, a greater appreciation for water, energy and clean air.

I strongly believe that a new attitude towards nuclear energy and a better attitude to energy usage is the only way forward over the next 30 years that will seriously reduce the impact of carbon emissions and its effect on the climate. I believe that this is the line our government ought to take and this should be the line recommended for other nations to take too. Why not a show case nuclear power station on the Isle of Grain? Skilled energy workers already in situ and a ready market on the doorstep?

If it takes direct action from a 'climate camp' to persuade a complacent and weak government to act in the interests of 'common good' then they deserve support.

Nick Stewart

Rochester, Saturday 9 August 2008

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My neice (who's in her 20s) was coming out of the doctors in Bells Lane when she was approached by two female police officers. They asked her where she had been, her name and where she was going. Why can't the residents of Hoo go about their daily busines without being harrassed? Maybe they thought her 4 month old baby in her arms could be used as an offensive weapon!?

D J

HOO, Saturday 9 August 2008

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So Jane Trowell believes the eyes of the world are upon what happens regarding the Climate Camp and Kingsnorth. Oh please wake up,the rest of the UK doesn't even know what is happening here. My family live in Yorkshire and as my Dad says there is hardly any media coverage. So it would seem that it really doesn't rate on the news scale.

Margaret Graham

Isle of Grain, Saturday 9 August 2008

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We were all assured that these protestors would be setting up camp outside of the village and that they would not cause us a problem. They are currently camped outside my house causing distress for my family. Their vehicles are making travelling up and down Bells Lane dangerous, and I take my life in my hands trying to get out of my driveway as I cannot see up or down the lane because of the vehicles blocking the view.

I for one will be glad when they all go back to wherever they came from. Perhaps we should find out and then go and park outside their houses!

Alan Vant

Hoo, Saturday 9 August 2008

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Which part of the reporters blog do I need to read? All I have found is that 80% of the costs were going to be recouped but now, funnily enough, they "can't promise anything". If I've missed it, feel free to give me a link to the blog you are talking about.

People say that they will be glad when this is all over, but I think something - that has nothing to do with Climate Change - will stick around for a long time. This week I have seen people's true colours. People that I would say hello to in the Street or have a pint with in the Chequers with are actually offensive to me. Little old ladies at the bus stop in the morning go silent as I sit down and wait - even though I've been waiting at that same stop every morning for the last 3 years. This is not for supporting a cause (that at some point we will have to face up to), but because I 'look like one of them'. I've lived in Hoo my whole life, as have 4 generations of my family. I prided myself on this. Now I'm ashamed. We have been shunned by our neighboours for allowing friends in the camp to park their car on our drive - our friends aren't there as Protesters, they are there as Mediators between the Police and the Camp! But people just look at their funny clothes and assume.

I'm sorry to rant, but Climate Change aside, I think this is one of the bigger pictures of how I've been affected. I've seen a side of Hoo that I really am ashamed of.

G N

Hoo, Saturday 9 August 2008

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With regard to how much financial benefit the power station brings to the local area, does anyone have accurate figures for the following:

1. How many full-time staff does Kingsnorth employ?

2. How many part-time (cleaning/cooking etc) staff does Kingsnorth employ?

3. What is the average wage for a full-time staff member?

4. How many of the full-time staff live anywhere on the Hoo peninsula?

5. How many of the part-time staff live anywhere on the Hoo peninsula?

6. Are there any other companies on the Peninsula who rely solely on the power station for their livelihood?

The enemy here is lack of knowledge. We need to find out what is really going on in the world, rather than believing what the giant media companies tell us. Profit does not equal truth.

And remember, if the power station goes offline today - we will still have electricity. That's the way the national grid works. Just because this power station is local, it doesn't mean it generates power for local people.

Mark Road

Hoo, Saturday 9 August 2008

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Ok - if the helicopter is flying over to see if people are breaking into Kingsnorth - how can they see this from the Camp? Because this is where they are everytime I look out of my living room window. If they were all the way down the other end of Hoo, as you state, then I wouldn't be as annoyed as I am about it.

G N

Hoo, Saturday 9 August 2008

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well i know gather the helicopters were being used to trace body images 2 throughtout the night after 11pm.!! but i cant wait to get back to normally flies round **** spring to mind im fed up with the police there,andthere is obvoiusly nothing else happening in kent . &campersour eco warrier friends .... and hangerons . surely by building a newer grenener power station it will bring us out of the ark .

roll on next week i like my sleepy village where nothing ever happens ....... can i have it back please .

l w

high hastow, Saturday 9 August 2008

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helicopter flies at night to use thermal imaging camera to locate people they maybe trying to sneak into kingsnorth.. considering there were 4 holes in the fences around kingsnorth made between mon-fri. they can locate people through body heat

D B

Medway, Saturday 9 August 2008

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DEAR G N read the updated reporters blog on funding then start eating that hat of yours.

D B

Medway, Saturday 9 August 2008

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The sooner the protesters have departed Kent the better, the opening march was a joke, a ragged band of mainly Green Party members, most looking glum, with a few colourful characters, yes i did watch it pass by, the police were polite and good humoured. regarding the proposed illegal actions planned, I hope that any who get arrested have a fair and just trial and maybe a few months inside some of our least modern prisons might do some good.

Al Olive

Strood, Friday 8 August 2008

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Sorry JC, it wont be anyone else except the KFB. (Kent Fire Brigade) sent out to rescue them. My partner being one of them who would possibly go out on the boat.

Rest of your comments I totally agree with!!!!!

J A

Hoo, Friday 8 August 2008

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I'm local and have been camping at the camp this week.

just to say, before we all get completely lost inside the temporary local impact of the protest, we need to remember that the eyes of the world are on what happens with Kingsnorth.

This is a test case for new coal-fired power stations, not just in the UK but globally. How about stepping back for one moment and seeing this for what it is. If the UK goes ahead with this after years of not expanding coal precisely because it is so dirty, then what moral leg do we have to stand on with China etc etc. It's just completely wrong to open up such a filthy way of generating energy again. It's not just about the burning of it, it's about the digging and mining of it, the transporting of it from Poland, Colombia, Australia etc. Carbon Dioxide all the way along the line. I hear there's a plan to open up 2 Opencast mines and one deep mine in the UK if this goes ahead. More pneumacomiosis and slag heaps and polluted rivers in the UK, on top of boiling the planet. This is a totally Victorian move. it's not the future it's the past. We've got to get ahead of the game and think long-term about the future. That's what all this is about...

jane trowell

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Higham, Friday 8 August 2008

I Think that yes climate camp is entitled to there opinions and should protest "PEACEFULLY" but trying to shut it down and cause damage.. why ? I Think the police are handling it very well! I work for the powerstation and they have helped me alot to further my career, The new powerstation is going to be better and cleaner than the existing one.. so surely thats a good thing! and if we didnt have the powerstation to supply our electric to our homes, hospitals then what? your talking about introuducing wind farms!??! there very unreliable, who's to say that we wont get a day thats really hot and muggy + hardly no wind... and many other things that could go wrong... I just cant wait untill they leave and i can go back to work... without all the palaver going on!

Emma Perrin

Hoo, Friday 8 August 2008

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I've driven around the area for the past two evenings briefly after work and to see the wasted police time is just extraordinary, who spotted the white van auto plate recognition system parked on the A228, we're all under big brother's eyes. I really wanted to get to this protest and spend some peaceful time, it's the first time I've been to Hoo area and the countryside is really welcoming! The presence and waiting time to get searched to visit the camp for a few hours has deterred me!

As opposed to this peaceful CC2008 I would welcome the Police elsewhere at events such as

This event run on the grounds of the Local Green Party activist Penny Kemp in Headcorn is blight to all Headcorn folk, it needs to be dealt with, anyone living there will know! I know a local dance group who attended in 07 not realizing the true event; never will they go there again. So if only KCC could send down a fraction of the force it has deployed at Kingsnorth and search that lot and see what you find, it would be appreciated by all Headcorn residents!

S Hubbard

steve hubbard

Medway, Friday 8 August 2008

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Mr Fuller,

I don't think it's fair to say that the Protesters have bought this disruption upon Hoo. As yet, nobody has been able to give me an answer as to why the helicopter flies around at ridiculous hours, so I shall continue to think that it is the Police being overzealous (along with antagonising, heavyhanded...?). I can't find very much information from The Climate Camp spokespeople that says that we would recieve thousands upon thousands of Protesters - perhaps this is media hype and/or the Police being somewhat overcharged about the whole thing.

We were warned that there would be disruption. We were warned of a Police presence that shouldn't affect us Locals too much. Well, the unnesessery use of the helicopter is affecting us, especially us at the top of Hoo. Policemen stopping me on my way home from work everyday asking where I've been/going etc is affecting me (I reiterate from an earlier post: I am not a conformist and therefore do not look like a model citizen. I have piercings and - shock horror - purple hair). So far the Protesters themselves have not affected me at all. I see a few, but not lots, in the village. Infact, the only time I really see a lot of them is when I visit the camp.

G N

Hoo, Friday 8 August 2008

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yes it,s about time i had my 2 bobs worth as a ex partime police officer & kingsnorth plant operator

for some 17 years born & bread in the village. Do people knoe that kingsnorth some 20 years ago were concerned over climate issues and in my days were putting in another bank of oil burners & emission reducing injectors in the top of all four boilers + other emission reducing parts of the plant.So do you think" powergen/e,on don,t care" your so wrong" everything has a life span take grain refinery now gone" berrywigins now gone " this new station we all need remeber it,s 2008 if this new station was that bad they would not be allowed to go ahead" everybodys, allowed to comment! but like adult,s as for the police their damed if they do" & if they don,t sadly if your a bad person and you wish to cause damage to our village, fields,power station, you should be punished" well done & thank,s for looking after our village" police officers.sorry to the real" real" peacfull, campainers" J.P.(HOO)

john perrin

HOO, Friday 8 August 2008

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people are complaining about the large police presence for this camp - are people forgetting that the stated intent is to stop kingsnorth power station from operating by any means - how can they lawfully do this ? therefore it makes the original intent a criminal activity and as such the police ratio of just over one officer to each camp resident doesnt seem that heavy handed

daniel martin

allhallows, Friday 8 August 2008

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I must say after checking out their website, I agree with the sentiment behind the camp and what it is trying to achieve - it is a very worthwhile cause. What worries me is the effect it has on our community, it definitely feels like the feelings of the local community are being ignored in the quest for the 'greater good'. Personally, the idea of protesters getting into the power station through any means necessary is a little frightening, I can't imagine how young children living within the area must be feeling, we all know how easily things can escalate and there is enough unwanted violence in Medway without this. Also, it strikes me that although I think the police activity is definitely over the top, if they relaxed their patrols and searches and someone ended up getting hurt it would go straight back to them not doing their job properly. It's a situation where anything they do will be wrong and they won't be able to make anyone happy!

Isabel Simon

Rochester, Friday 8 August 2008

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Just a comment regarding SM's rant. The Police had to be given the powers under section 60 on Thursday, because on Wednesday the police were committing an offence by stopping and searching individuals without giving reasons.

R S

Medway, Friday 8 August 2008

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haveing been a slaughterman for 25 years i can tell you why police confiscate things ,we had all of this in the 70s and 80s ,superglue is used to block locks and vehicles ,bolt cutters are used to cut brake pipes of vehicles ,knives well think for yourselves,also on the camp are animal rights activists animals count are boasting about it on their website,if this stupid regatta goes ahead on saturday who rescues you if something goes wrong and haveing been a boat user for 30 years it probably will ,presumeably it will be the police or the rnli so you will be putting other boat users at risk ,the nearest rnli station is at sheerness hopefully it will get there in time. as for the police they are doing a brilliant job well done to them because the last time i looked possesion of weapons was an offence ,blocking entrances was an offence ,attempting to attend the camp when ordered not to by a judge was an offence,attempting to shut down the power station is an offence,hopefully the police will try and get the money for the policeing from the organisers because the people of kent do not want to foot the bill for all your lawbreaking

jc c

kent, Friday 8 August 2008

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As a resident of Hoo I am irritated by the disruption the protestors have brought to the village and surrounding area.I am pleased with the police presence and believe they need to take a tough stand when these people threaten to illegally shut down Kingsnorth Power Station if need be by force.E.on as a company are portrayed by the protestors as being the 'baddies',but E.on are venturing into all forms of fuels to try to get a varied energy balance.We need a security of supply and also affordable energy.

I also believe that Global Warming has been around for hundreds of years,ships logs have been uncovered that reveal eccentric weather patterns from the 1730's and these could NOT have been 'man-made'.The protestors are only concerned with a little part of the argument and have no real concrete answer to the energy gap.

Kevin Fuller

Hoo, Friday 8 August 2008

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Well, Gary Beautridge, if your aim is to alienate the public and devalue the laws of England, then you and your agent-provocateur bully-boys are doing a fine job! I have never seen such a blatent display of police imtimidation, except possibly some of the news footage coming out of 3rd world banana republics like Mugabe's Zimbabwe.

Judging by the balance of letters here, you have lost the support of the public. Perhaps you are arrogant enough to think a modern police force dosen't need this and can get by without it. Good luck to you, but I don't thing the ordinary copper on the street would agree with you. When I say "devaluing laws of England" what I mean is that you now have so many powers at your disposal that anybody can now be intimidated, criminalized or arrested for anything, including carrying items that "might be used as weapons" How's that then, it sounds a bit as if "innocent until proven guilty" has got lost somewhere. Anything can potenially be used as a weapon, we were designed that way by 100,000 years of evolution! Fists, feet, heads, stale french loaves, board games, cameras (must confiscate the cameras)...Oh, but I forgot, these are SPECIAL powers, the ones you normally use arn't good enough to control a field full of unarmed vegetarians without donning full riot gear and spraying them with mace. The state doesn't half get stroppy these days with anybody who effectively disagrees with it! You won't hear me moaning about human rights in China any more, after this. And over the top of all this, [the police] chopper hovers noisily as an added reminder of the state's power. Nice!

Chris Pannell

Orlando, Friday 8 August 2008

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I am seriously disturbed by the actions of the police in the video footage I have just witnessed.

A Waugh

Worcestershire, Friday 8 August 2008

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I visited the camp yesterday. The police presence was intimidating, but fortunately a camper had warned us what to expect. I and an elderly lady from Hoo were obliged to wait to be searched while large numbers of police stood around doing nothing. The police from W Yorks who searched me were courteous but logged all the contents of my bag and pockets, and confiscated a whiteboard marker (i'm a teacher and had left it in my bag) on grounds that it could be used to inflict criminal damage. I have since been wondering what criminal damage it could inflict (something that can be wiped off so easily would not be much use for tagging trains…) and why something that I can legally carry with me anywhere else suddenly becomes confiscatable when I propose to visit a camp whose main purpose is educational.

Thereafter the main obstacle was the large puddle across the road, and I compliment the police driver who waited till I had negotiated my way around it before proceeding to drive his van through it.

Nevertheless, it was a huge relief to be assisted over the gate and into the tranquility of the camp. If this is a vision of a low carbon future, it is one I can happily live with. In the workshop I attended, there was a great deal of serious, intelligent discussion, leavened by good humour and tolerance of differences. If only university seminars were so civilised!

But I fear that the more probable vision of our future is what lies outside the camp: an overbearing police state to the corporate interests that are destroying the means of our survival.

c c

Canterbury, Friday 8 August 2008

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Why are people slagging the police off for "overkill?" If they didn't provide enough police to control the crowd (one that's shown it is not averse to violence and weaponry) and there was a riot, who would get the blame?

The police, while largely laughable and ineffective at day-to-day crime prevention/detection, have always copped it (if you'll pardon the pun) when it comes to maintaining order at public protests. They're either too heavy handed or woefully inadequate to deal with the problem.

Carl Taylor

England, Friday 8 August 2008

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Having read some of the reports me and a friend took a drive out to Hoo last night to see what was going on, we are nothing to do with the protests just curious locals and I have got to say the police presence just defies belief. We stopped several miles away from the camp in a lay by on a small road but within moments the police had descended upon us and proceeded to search us and the car, even going through all of the photos on a digital camera! Talk about a breach of privacy. The police presence there is completely over the top and I really feel for the residents. How on earth can you sleep with the racket that police helicopter makes hovering above the camp?

Just a Local

Chatham, Friday 8 August 2008

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SM of Rochester, there are between 6 and 9 KCAM members camped on site all week with daily visits from others who are not able to "rough it" because they are either unable to get time off work or physically incapable of camping due to age and disability. They have been able to meet and greet interested locals who have visited camp.

T KCAM Member

Medway, Friday 8 August 2008

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On a day to day basis in Medway there are crimes reported for which the police do not have sufficient resource to respond. Over the last week the police presence due to the climate camp has been overwhelming, possibly over the top. 1) what is the financial cost of this and who is paying the bill. 2) Medway residents should get a better 24/7 police service, but hey we are only council tax/income tax paying locals. Its an insulting imbalance to see this use of police resource.

Annette King

Gillingham, Friday 8 August 2008

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"reality of the penisula" forgot to mention that hydro power uses off peak times to pump water back up to storage i.e. stored electricity, and also that coal is finite so even if we do keep it in the mix it isn't a long term solution. Please please please understand coal is the largest contributor to CO2 emissions and climate change, stop trying to excuse its use through examples of playstations and couch potatoes, its a terrible insult to the millions across the world who are already dying because of climate change :-(

t m

medway, Friday 8 August 2008

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Due to the poor turn out for the March on Sunday I`d agree that the Policing levels where a tadge overkill, however the Police and local residents where lead to believe that the number of protestors marching would be more like 400-500 rather than the couple of hundred that turned up.

I find it rather staggering that these organisations have thousands upon thousands of registered members, yet only a 1000+ can actually be bothered to rough it for a week on the fields, I`m sure theres a reasonable explanation? but it doesnt show a great deal of support for the cause.

I`m also a little suprised at the KCAM members here that have only "visited" the camp?? what?? something this big on your calendar, right on your doorstep! and yet you choose not to take a week off work and support your fellow campaigners? I dont blame you, I like my creature comforts as well.

The extended stop and search powers now given to the Police was no real suprise after the other nights events, the 30 or so who refused to be searched, will now find themselves actually commiting an offence, I dont believe that there is any reason for local residents to be too bothered by this, I have nothing to hide so therefore should I happen to be stopped will have no problem turning out my pockets to the fuzz, but lets be real about this, its aimed at protestors entering and leaving the camp to enable the Police to have a reason to arrest the campers on the spot that refuse to be searched.

S M

Rochester, Friday 8 August 2008

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I think the police need to take a step back the level of force being used is well over the top le it does not need 5 men to search one person by dragging and pressing on them.

TREVOR WILKS

MEDWAY, Friday 8 August 2008

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At the time of me writing this, it is 11.30 pm and once again I am listening to the sounds of the Police helicopter hovering about. Can somebody please give me a good reason as to why the Police helicopter is in the air at stupid-o-clock? Everybody (and now we have the section 60 in place, I mean EVERYBODY!) is searched going into the camp. There is obviously nothing illegal or offensive going into the camp (when I visited they took away my false nails glue that a friend had left in my bag!), so what trouble could possibly be raised in the camp that would merit these night time visits? I feel for the people in the camp because, as far as I am aware, this is antagonism. Nobody can give me a plausible reason for this. As I understand it, running this helicopter is far from cheap, so with the massive police presence, do we really need this? And please don't tell me that this is for 'intellegance gathering'. It has been reported that the Police and Protesters have reached an agreement where the Police may enter the camp to patrol. With that and the searching on entering, and sometimes, exiting the camp I think that would give them plenty of intelligence.

In contradiction to the huge amount of searches going on - when I took my Mother in law to the camp today, we were taken out of the queue at Checkpoint Charlie and allowed to proceed down the road and into the camp with no problems - all we did was tell the Police we were locals. I'm not saying I like being searched everytime I visit, but it seems it's one rule for one and one rule for another...

G N

Hoo, Thursday 7 August 2008

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I am very shocked at the video I have just watched. In one part, it is clear to see a police officer with his knee against a protesters neck! Some of the methods used to restrain and move are tantamount to assault. Are recognised restraint and move methods not applicable here? I am extremely disappointed in what I have witnessed here.

Andy Young

Romney Marsh, Thursday 7 August 2008

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Reality of Peninsula - we are already past the point of one planet being able to sustain us so our approach to life must change.

I agree we need a sustainabl