North Thanet MP Sir Roger Gale 'fighting for soul of Conservative Party, to stop it becoming like Ukip'
05:00, 08 January 2023
updated: 09:47, 09 June 2023
He is the MP who ignited the revolt against Boris Johnson; heaped pressure on the government over the notorious Manston detention centre and says he has a “bucket-list” of things he wants to do before he retires. Top of the list? Leading the charge in the battle for the soul of the party.
Back in January, our political editor Paul Francis spoke to the county’s longest-serving MP about why he isn’t prepared to opt for the quiet life.
Not many MPs cite the Russian invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968 as inspiration for getting involved in politics. But had he not joined a protest march through London, Sir Roger Gale might not have ended up in the Commons.
He was among a 50,000-strong crowd that had taken to the streets to express their solidarity with Czechoslavakia and its socialist leader Alexander Dubcek, after it was put under control by the Soviet Union.
As the crowd milled about, he spotted a loud-speaker van from which the well-known left-wing political agitator Tariq Ali was defending the invasion.
“He was on top of the van, saying how wonderful it was that Russia had gone in and liberated the people of Czechoslovakia from a terrorist regime that others had tried to impose," Sir Roger recalls.
"A woman who was organising the speeches assumed I was one of them. She asked me if I wanted to speak, so I said yes.
"I was on top of the van and said, 'What you have just heard is the biggest load of balls you'll ever hear in your life.'
"Then I thought what should I do now? So I started chanting 'Dubcek, Dubcek' and 50,000 people joined in.
"At which point I threw down the loud speaker and courageously left."
The experience prompted Sir Roger to decide that he would give up his career as a television producer and go into politics.
“I went home and thought well this is ridiculous. If I believe in this, I’m going to have to do something about it.”
He joined and was active in the Conservatives in London but his first stab at an election was unsuccessful. Picked to fight a ward in the strongly Labour-led Lambeth council in a by-election he jokes that he lost “by about a million votes”.
He came closer when he fought a Parliamentary by-election in Birmingham, coming within 300 votes of winning the seat but losing out to Labour candidate Jim Spellar, who went on to become a minister. Despite closing the gap, he was disappointed.
“From the party’s point of view it was a good result but I hated losing. Actually, it turned out to be the best thing that happened to me. North Thanet came up and I got picked.”
Among the candidates he faced in 1983 was Cherie Booth, who was Tony Blair's wife. The 1983 election intake also saw Jeremy Corbyn take his seat, the Labour firebrand who went on to become party leader.
Was politics very different then?
“Yes it was; old men always say things aren’t what they used to be but they aren’t.
"Politics has evolved hugely in the House over the past 40 years. Members of Parliament were just that - we scrutinised legislation, passed laws.
"An enormous amount of what we do now is social work - to the detriment, I would argue, of parliamentary activity. I don’t mind but I think Parliament suffers as a result.”
The other factor that has had a far-reaching impact on politics is the changing media landscape.
“Social media and the internet have transformed the landscape in news and politics dramatically - in a way I would argue has not been for the better.”
"I cannot see any point at all in depressing myself by reading lots of rude comments about me...”
Sir Roger is a reluctant late adopter of Twitter - seen by some as the political playground of keyboard warriors.
His posts don’t exactly come from the horse’s mouth as they are drafted by his assistant which he sees and - if necessary amends - and doesn’t trouble to look at the feedback.
“I don’t see it; I don’t look at it; I let people get on with it. I cannot see any point at all in depressing myself by reading lots of rude comments about me.”
He rejects the idea that social media is simply another platform for politicians and the public.
“No, it’s worse than that - it is less considered,” he says.
The irony is that his own media profile over the past 18 months has in large part risen because of his trenchant views on Boris Johnson, frequently expressed on Twitter.
Sir Roger was the first to publicly declare that he had sent in a letter requesting a vote of no confidence in Boris Johnson. That was in December 2021 but the pair crossed swords much earlier.
In one savage put-down in a Commons debate on the Brexit deal in 2018, he taunted a visibly discomforted Johnson, saying “he appears to be someone who prefers the grievance to the solution…what’s his big idea?”
Looking back at that intervention, he says it revealed Johnson as a man determined to get the keys to Downing Street at any cost, including the betrayal of the then Prime Minister Theresa May.
Sir Roger has continued to be a persistent and dogged critic of Johnson but denies it was personal.
“I stuck my head above the parapet and if you do that you get shot at.
"The man has a certain populist appeal but it is just that. If you have a nation of voters who by and large are anti-European and wanted Brexit done, then he was going to get a sizeable [election] result.”
But he stands by his criticisms, saying he did not like the way Johnson]operates.
“My criticisms have by and large been justified by what emerged later," he says.
That refers to the scandal of ‘party-gate’ which eventually forced Johnson out of Downing Street.
Sir Roger's multiple calls for a vote of no confidence were sometimes derided as over-the-top. He later said that to have such a vote while Ukraine was fighting Russia would be a distraction.
But he was back on the offensive more recently when Boris Johnson's allies hinted he could be among the runners and riders preparing another tilt at the leadership, buoyed by the apparent backing of enough MPs to get him on the ballot.
Johnson eventually decided not to run - not before Gale announced that if he did return, he would quit the Parliamentary party and sit as an independent.
He rejects the argument that, for all his flaws, Johnson did at least appear to be someone who could win elections in the face of adversity.
“If his judgement was so good, he would not have landed himself in the mess that he did in Downing Street.
“One of the reasons I am carrying on - and I know it sounds pompous - is because I am fighting for the soul of my party..."
"It started to unravel and he thought he could bluster his way through. You can’t do that in Downing Street…he was not so much a broad brush as a six-foot paint roller; he has no eye for detail.
"I don’t know if he bears a grudge against me because I have been instrumental in his downfall.”
Sir Roger says he warned the then Prime Minister that he needed to get shot of his controversial spin doctor Dominic Cummings “or he will bring you down” after a meeting of the 1922 committee.
He can’t resist another jab, though - asking why it was alright for Boris Johnson to be on holiday in the Dominican Republic plotting a possible return but not for the former health secretary Matt Hancock to be on the recent series of I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here.
“[Johnson] came back, expecting acclamation and then discovered there were people like me who were saying they would resign the Conservative Whip if he became leader.”
As to why he is choosing to contest another election after being returned 10 times as North Thanet MP, he says he has unfinished business and a bucket list of things he wants to achieve
“One of the reasons I am carrying on - and I know it sounds pompous - is because I am fighting for the soul of my party.
"I am a one-nation Tory. At the moment, it seems to me that the right-wing of the party is in the ascendancy. They are driving an agenda in a way I don’t like.
"When you get to that point, you have two choices. I take the view that if you don’t like something, you don’t throw in the towel, you fight your battles from the inside and you fight to win.”
He says there is a populist group of MPs “trying to drag the party hard to the right to make it pseudo-Ukip in all but name”.
He accepts the short-lived Prime Minister Liz Truss has damaged the Conservative reputation for sound financial management.
But he is more compassionate about her short-lived spell in Number 10, saying the instability in the economy was due to factors she was not in control of, such as the legacy of Covid and the war in Ukraine.
As to his verdict on Rishi Sunak?
“I know people say he is rich so he can’t be any good. Well, actually he is very rich because he is very good. He knows how to run an economy.”
With polls showing a growing gap between the Conservatives and Labour, Sir Roger is more upbeat than some about the party’s prospects at the next election, which could yet be two years away.
“We have got to get through winter. We have clearly got politically-motivated strikes lined up against us. That coupled with understandable public concern about the cost of living crisis and the cost of fuel means Rishi Sunak has taken on a hugely poisoned chalice and he knows that.”
He says Conservative fortunes rest partly on Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer staying put, arguing that he has “nothing to offer in terms of policy or personality” despite recent polls showing a growing gap between the two parties.
Sir Roger brushes off the suggestion that Labour is set for a repeat of its landslide in 1997, when Tony Blair led the party to victory - sweeping up half of Kent’s seats, which it went on to hold at the next two elections.
However, he also says there could be a situation in which Labour could form a minority administration.
"[Starmer] is a reasonably safe, not-Jeremy-Corbyn pair of hands. To that extent, he has one or two things going for him.
“He is not a natural Prime Minister. I'd be surprised if they had a majority. They might be able to have a coalition or possibly a Conservative government.
"We have lots of things stacked against us - not just what has happened in the last few years under Johnson."
Inevitably, it is the former Manston airport site that has loomed large on both the local and national political agenda.
He is critical of the government’s failure to get a grip on the numbers of asylum seekers being detained at the processing centre at Manston, which he opposed at the outset.
“It worked almost perfectly between January and mid-September and took the pressure of the Tug Haven intake centre at Dover.
"However, the fire bombing incident meant all the people at Dover had to be moved to Manston - using the coaches that were supposed to be moving people to other areas. It was a lose-lose situation.”
He describes the Home Office's track record on dealing with claims as lamentable and a disgrace but says there is not a quick fix.
“Anyone who tells you there is, is not telling the truth.
"Whatever the solution is, it is not Rwanda. It is dog whistle politics. It is not the answer and it won’t work.
"You hear Farage and some home secretaries saying ‘send them back’ but we abide by international law - you cannot lawfully send them back to France.”
He says there is an obvious way of managing the situation that has been overlooked.
“Here we are, short of labour, paying shedloads of money to put people up in hotels. That gets up the noses of the tax-paying public, when we have a lot of people who are young and fit and could be working for a living.”
That begs the question of why, at the age of 80, he is determined to continue as MP for North Thanet - a seat that he has held continuously since 1983, making him the fifth longest-serving MP in the Commons.
Modern day politics remains as frustrating as it is rewarding - the latter being what keeps him motivated.
“When you have helped a family get a child into a school, when you get someone rehoused and a proper roof over their head, so they can move forward - you know you have changed that person’s life and you hope it works.
"You don’t win every battle but at the margins, you can make a difference.”
He remains a staunch and vocal supporter of the efforts to re-open Manston as a cargo aviation hub, which has been dogged by controversy and remains on hold following a second legal challenge by opponents.
“I want to see planes landing at Manston again. I want to live to see that and I want to while I am an MP, before I pop my clogs or sail off into the sunset.”
He acknowledges that ultimately, voters will determine his fate but having won in North Thanet at 10 General Elections, you would not bet against an eleventh victory.
In the 2019 election he secured a majority of 17,109, a mammoth margin of victory.
If Labour was to overturn that, the Conservatives really would be in trouble.
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